Poll: Should the use of F5 be allowed on MCBall?


Buffowatts a Posts: 1,390 Likes: +2,102 LEVEL 0	Hey everyone so I'm just doing a general poll and discussion thread. I have had more than a few players tell me it is ruining the game and would like to see MCBall return to the old days when most players did not use it. I'm pretty proficient with it myself so I see it as a skill as well. First before heads explode. This is just a survey. This isn't something we would suddenly change. Their would be a break in period for players to unbind their keys and get used to not playing without it if we ever did make this change. Here is the framing of the debate as I see it. Arguments for allowing F5 1) F5 adds an additional element of skill that can be learned by anyone so why bother? 2) Everyone can use F5 so it isn't an unfair advantage. 3) Enforcing the rule will be difficult (except using replay mod it is pretty easy to see who is using it) Arguments for not using F5 1) It isn't realistic for a shooting game and the game would be more fun without it. 2) It puts new players and younger players at a severe disadvantage. MCBall retention would improve without players using F5. I will edit this thread as players add what I consider good points for one side or the other. And now for the Poll.............WHAT NO POLL..... I'm going to leave this open for discussion for a little while. Probably in about a week I'll add the poll and players can start voting. So here is the poll. Poll closes on August 11th 1) Should the use of F5 be allowed on MCBall? 1) Yes 7 votes 70% 2) No 3 votes 30% Number of voters: 10 Poll is closed 1) Yes 2) No Poll is closed "I found the lost island but now what?" Posted Jul 23, 18 · OP · Last edited Jul 28, 18 Like x 1 x 1 List Undo
NotOskis Posts: 958 Likes: +882 LEVEL 0	I as a fairly experienced player uses F5 constantly (even bound F5 to "R" key so it's easier to switch) and I would love for the F5 to stay just for the reason of comfort. But sometimes it's fun with changes and challenges and I see this as a step towards more new players, because the game gets fairer for the ones not as experienced! Thank you for reading. Posted Jul 24, 18
radronnie3 Posts: 1,018 Likes: +1,418 LEVEL 0	Buffowatts wrote: 2) It puts new players and younger players at a severe disadvantage. MCBall retention would improve without players using F5. I disagree. Although f5 does set apart new players from experienced ones, the skill gap is still huge. No matter what, new players will almost always be at a disadvantage just because of how long older players have been playing for. And also, if everyone has access to it and its a vanilla minecraft function, then why get rid of it? Why put the staff through the trouble of trying to find people who use f5 now plus xray, fastplace, and whatever else. It just seems like getting rid of f5 would just be ridiculous. Posted Jul 24, 18 Like x 2 x 2 List Undo
Xorgon a Posts: 3,281 Likes: +1,912 LEVEL 0	The reason I hate F5 is that it's entirely one-sided. If you sit behind a box you can easily see anyone coming with F5 but the person approaching has no chance at all. It's way too easy to set yourself up in a position and camp the hell out of the opposing team, especially if you're defending. Also, the only element of skill to it is getting used to switching between views which is not nearly enough of a skill to warrant the massive advantage it gives. Thanks, Xorgon xorgon.me Posted Jul 24, 18 Like x 2 x 2 List Undo
radronnie3 Posts: 1,018 Likes: +1,418 LEVEL 0	Xorgon wrote: The reason I hate F5 is that it's entirely one-sided. If you sit behind a box you can easily see anyone coming with F5 but the person approaching has no chance at all. It's way too easy to set yourself up in a position and camp the hell out of the opposing team, especially if you're defending. Also, the only element of skill to it is getting used to switching between views which is not nearly enough of a skill to warrant the massive advantage it gives. Ok, but then how would you even enforce this? You can't replay every game played on MCBall. It would be almost impossible for staff to enforce this. Posted Jul 24, 18
ghostdude54 Posts: 432 Likes: +307 LEVEL 0 Outreach Team	radronnie3 wrote: Ok, but then how would you even enforce this? You can't replay every game played on MCBall. It would be almost impossible for staff to enforce this.[/quote] There are known mods and plugins that can disable F5. I'm not 100% sure but I don't quite think enforcement is the problem with the idea. My quote is on point... Have a good day! ~Ghost Posted Jul 24, 18 · Last edited Jul 24, 18
Xorgon a Posts: 3,281 Likes: +1,912 LEVEL 0	ghostdude54 wrote: There are known mods and plugins that can disable F5. It's not hard to disable it with mods but we can't enforce usage of a mod. I'm not aware of any server plugins that can do it, although if you know any I'd be very interested in seeing them. radronnie3 wrote: Ok, but then how would you even enforce this? You can't replay every game played on MCBall. It would be almost impossible for staff to enforce this. That is indeed a disadvantage if we don't allow it. But it would be a similar process to x-ray checking. Thanks, Xorgon xorgon.me Posted Jul 24, 18 · Last edited Jul 24, 18
Dot_Dot_Dot Posts: 686 Likes: +1,150 LEVEL 0	New players are unaware of the extent of f5 usage. They can learn, but it is more likely that they quit before they even realise they are prefired due to f5. It is way more frustrating for a new player (and for old ones aswell) to die from an f5 camp than from a 'fair' fight. Besides that, as an experienced player with f5, there is no way a new player might catch you of guard. You constantly have full vision of what is going to happen. Without f5, how experienced you may be, there will be some blindspots (depending on the map of course). Meaning that a new player can catch a kill on an (in his eyes) immortal player. These small achievements might push him to play more, whereas if he is constantly shut down ... "if everyone has access to it and its a vanilla minecraft function, then why get rid of it?" Because people (myself included) think it will improve the gameplay and fun for the majority of the players. Everyone has access to products that can easily be made into a bomb. That doesn't mean making a bomb is legal. (Kind of an exaggeration, but it shows the argument is based on faulty reasoning.) "Why put the staff through the trouble of trying to find people who use f5 now plus xray, fastplace, and whatever else." "Ok, but then how would you even enforce this? You can't replay every game played on MCBall. It would be almost impossible for staff to enforce this." Catching hackers will be much easier if you do not have to consider that the suspect is using f5. Catching f5'ers is even easier than catching hackers. This will make staffs job easier, since they do not have to distinguish between f5'ers and hackers. F5'ers and hackers are in the same catagory if this is implemented. Maybe the workload will increase due to players still using f5, but I think after a few ban waves that will be back to normal. (Devilish smile) "The reason I hate F5 is that it's entirely one-sided. If you sit behind a box you can easily see anyone coming with F5 but the person approaching has no chance at all. It's way too easy to set yourself up in a position and camp the hell out of the opposing team, especially if you're defending. Also, the only element of skill to it is getting used to switching between views which is not nearly enough of a skill to warrant the massive advantage it gives." I completely agree. Also, by banning f5 in tournaments, the nessecity of good communication, tactics, map control and teamwork will become way more important than a simple f5 defender(s) that stop(s) most pushes. In the past tournaments, it quite often happens that, when teams are somewhat in the same skill range, flag caps are quite hard to get. By banning f5 there will be more holes in the defences allowing for easier flag captures. The game will be more fastpaced and teams will have to be more (pro)active. "I would love for the F5 to stay just for the reason of comfort." You/I/Players using f5 use it to gather intell and camp for kills. It is a zero risk strategy, so as you describe it it is quite comfortable. By banning f5 the intell gathering and camping will be risky, making it less comfortable, but more exciting. Also success will be more about making the right desicions and having gameknowlegde/awareness, instead of just f5'ing everything. Kind regards, ... PS: Small recap Arguments for allowing F5 1) F5 adds an additional element of skill that can be learned by anyone so why bother? "The only element of skill to it is getting used to switching between views which is not nearly enough of a skill to warrant the massive advantage it gives." -Xorgon 2) Everyone can use F5 so it isn't an unfair advantage. Everyone can make a bomb, but making a bomb is still illegal (United States excluded; I'm not sure) 3) Enforcing the rule will be difficult (except using replay mod it is pretty easy to see who is using it) "Catching hackers will be much easier if you do not have to consider that the suspect is using f5. Catching f5'ers is even easier than catching hackers." -... As for arguments for banning f5: - Gameplay improvement for a majority of the community and for new players - New and in my eyes more elaborate tactical part of the game. - More enjoyable game and less f5 frustration Posted Jul 24, 18 · Last edited Jul 24, 18 Like x 2 x 2 List Undo
alylsh Posts: 166 Likes: +261 LEVEL 0	"1) F5 adds an additional element of skill that can be learned by anyone so why bother? "The only element of skill to it is getting used to switching between views which is not nearly enough of a skill to warrant the massive advantage it gives." -Xorgon" If it's such an easy skill, then the argument for new players is removed. We can add the information of F5 to the gameplay board as a helpful hint, and then all new players will know how to play. If they don't read it, that's their own fault and they're missing many other important gameplay pieces, so I'm not worried about that. "2) Everyone can use F5 so it isn't an unfair advantage. Everyone can make a bomb, but making a bomb is still illegal (United States excluded; I'm not sure)" It is a universal thing and I don't think this should be put to the side so soon. Optifine is legal and allows players zoom, and this isn't even vanilla but provides a similarly huge advantage in the same fashion of just a simple button. This justifies that the presence of F5 isn't an issue unless you address every single simple advantage within MCBall. "3) Enforcing the rule will be difficult (except using replay mod it is pretty easy to see who is using it) "Catching hackers will be much easier if you do not have to consider that the suspect is using f5. Catching f5'ers is even easier than catching hackers." -..." I really don;y have anything for this, but the current system honestly works fine. Those who hack are either super obvious or know how to hide it, and I don't think the removal of F5 will change that. - Gameplay improvement for a majority of the community and for new players As I said earlier, new players can be informed of this and it is an incredibly easy thing to learn. I personally don't want F5 to go, and I would like to see the proof of a 'majority.' I honestly don't believe a majority of the community dislikes F5, or would like to see it removed. - New and in my eyes more elaborate tactical part of the game. Just because it would be new doesn't mean it would be good, similar to your bomb example. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. It may provide more tactics and allow communication to improve, but really F5 only gives you so much more. There are still obstacles and buildings and walls and such that cause it to prevent good communication. - More enjoyable game and less f5 frustration F5 frustration is the same thing as protection frustration, spawn shield frustration, spawn camping frustration and anything else that would cause you to die. Frustration has never stopped the addition or removal of anything before, why should we start with something that I don't believe is a problem within the game. Especially compared to other more universal issues within MCBall. TL;DR- i think it should be allowed Posted Jul 24, 18 Like x 1 x 1 List Undo
Xorgon a Posts: 3,281 Likes: +1,912 LEVEL 0	alylsh wrote: "1) F5 adds an additional element of skill that can be learned by anyone so why bother? "The only element of skill to it is getting used to switching between views which is not nearly enough of a skill to warrant the massive advantage it gives." -Xorgon" If it's such an easy skill, then the argument for new players is removed. We can add the information of F5 to the gameplay board as a helpful hint, and then all new players will know how to play. If they don't read it, that's their own fault and they're missing many other important gameplay pieces, so I'm not worried about that. The general idea is that having a skill gives you advantage. The better you are with a skill the bigger the advantage, and more difficult skills give bigger advantages. For example, ninja is a difficult skill to master and when mastered gives a very big advantage. F5 is easy to 'master', but gives a relatively massive advantage. If F5 was a feature we could control we could work to make it more balanced, like having a cooldown on it, or make switching take a relatively long time. But since we don't have control over it there's no way we can balance it and so it's an incredibly overpowered ability. Yes, everyone can do it, but it means that being good at other skills is basically pointless compared to using F5. It doesn't matter if you're amazing at aim if you can't even see an opponent who can see you. alylsh wrote: "It is a universal thing and I don't think this should be put to the side so soon. Optifine is legal and allows players zoom, and this isn't even vanilla but provides a similarly huge advantage in the same fashion of just a simple button. This justifies that the presence of F5 isn't an issue unless you address every single simple advantage within MCBall. - More enjoyable game and less f5 frustration F5 frustration is the same thing as protection frustration, spawn shield frustration, spawn camping frustration and anything else that would cause you to die. Frustration has never stopped the addition or removal of anything before, why should we start with something that I don't believe is a problem within the game. Especially compared to other more universal issues within MCBall. No other feature allows you to do what is otherwise impossible, they can all be dealt with. Optifine allows you to zoom in and see a bit better, but it only lets you see a bit better, it doesn't let you see new things and players can still see you if you can see them. Protection lets you take an extra hit, but can be dealt with by shooting them more or using other kits etc. etc.. Spawn camping is annoying, but can be countered (and is already being directly addressed in other ways). F5 entirely adds the ability to see around corners without being seen, there's nothing that can counter it, and nothing that a player can do to mitigate its effects. If you have no idea that a player is around a corner and no way to find out, and they know exactly where you are, there's no way to deal with that. Also, frustration shouldn't cause something to be added or removed, but it should be considered. The cause of the frustration should be investigated, is the thing causing the frustration fair and just feels bad or is it actually unfair? With spawn camping the cause of frustration is being addressed because it isn't fair. That's why we try to spawn players away from enemies, it weighs on how spawns are placed in maps, it's why there are spawn shields, it's why mercy kit exists, and part of why we have a new spawn system coming with Blur. We obviously can't just remove spawn camping, but we could ban F5. Thanks, Xorgon xorgon.me Posted Jul 24, 18 · Last edited Jul 24, 18 Like x 3 x 3 List Undo

Poll: Should the use of F5 be allowed on MCBall?

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